December 6, 2011 by Jess Carlson. She said,Carl Llewellyn Weschcke has obviously seen a lot of Wiccan and Pagan groups come and go in his time, and he receives requests for his personal involvement in different organizations all the time. Or where the origins of the pagan name came from? The Wild Hunt is not responsible for links to external content. Never mind that there are still people who face real danger if they come out. structures. We do not accept the concept of absolute evil, nor do we worship any entity known as ". The council members will be LIVE on air on United Pagan Radio at 4:30 eastern and I will discuss this again tonight at 10 PM eastern http://www.unitedpaganradio.net. The cottage was discovered near Lower Black Moss reservoir in the village of Barley, in the shadow of Pendle Hill. This s. Answer (1 of 7): Hello, person time-traveling from the fifteenth century! As others have also said, the utter lack of transparency and unwillingness to provide direct, meaningful answers to reasonable inquiries is troubling. Hopefully, something with more substance will be published, but I wont be holding my breath. His information came from alleged ex-witch informants who populate the fundamentalist Christian lecture circuit, and who publish books purporting to expose secrets of witchcraft. A lot. I think men are lazy in this aspect by not working this up for themselves. Our only animosity towards Christianity, or towards any other religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be the only way and have sought to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of religious practice and belief. We do not seek power through the suffering of others, nor do we accept that personal benefit can be derived only by denial to another. The American Council of Witches put forward just one set of Wiccan beliefs for an incredibly diverse, individualized religion. The effort was spearheaded by Carl Weschcke, a Wiccan priest and president of Llewellyn Publications in St. Paul, Minnesota. Before disbanding, the group managed to put together the Thirteen Principles of Belief, which was a general set of principles for Witches. American Council of Witches 2016 EXPOSED Claims to not be part of the council, despite. Dont taint this movement based on negativity towards the past. Lady Destiny and Mistress Dax look into the topic of the American Concil of Witches (ACoW). If you have all this depth in the community, and I have no reason to doubt that you do, you should understand as well as any of us that secrecy and pretensions to authority have an incredibly toxic history in our movement, and demands for trust under those conditions are an absolute non-starter for todays pagans. We conceive of the Creative Power in the universe as manifesting through polarity as masculine and feminine and that this same Creative Power lies in all people, and functions through the interaction of the masculine and the feminine. So it was particularly fascinating when Parris's 9-year-old daughter Elizabeth and 11-year-old niece began experiencing contortions and tantrums, or fits, alongside another 11-year-old girl. In 1900, author L. Frank Baum began to alter the image of the witch with his wildly popular children's book The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, giving America its first famous good witch.By the mid-twentieth century, good witches became hugely popular in American . The main Pagan media outlet investigating and reporting on the 2011councilwas The Modern Witch Podcast, hosted by Devin Hunter and Rowan Pendragon. 3. Well, I dont know who YOU think is in charge of Pagan Society, but I can tell you who they arent in charge of: me. Salem, Massachusetts, as we all know, was not so lucky between 1692 and 1693. If theyre still getting their act together back off and give them time to do it. Pagans and magic enthusiasts of all kinds have been in need of unity and organization for a very long time, and it is something Ive always felt was sorely missing from the Craft. A Pagan or Wiccan org that investigates murders? Mar 27, 2017 - In 1973 a group of witches got together and put together a list of 13 Principles of Belief which is still used as a guideline by some Neopagan groups today. However,none of this has eased community concerns. That policy was followed in this case. Imbolc Feb. 2 We do not recognize any authoritarian hierarchy, but do honour those who teach, respect those who share their greater knowledge and wisdom, and acknowledge those who have courageously given of themselves in leadership. Calling oneself Witch does not make a Witch but neither does heredity itself, nor the collecting of titles, degrees and initiations. 49 s 860 e Springville, UT 84663 E-mail @ charnorton@live.com phone (801)687-6616 for correspondence *Optional to answer! Christian beliefs and practice into a modern context in the 1940s. We neglect neither dimension for the other, seeing both as necessary for our fulfilment. Pagans who publically disagreed with the edicts of The American Council Of Witches had a unfortunate habit of disappearing in the dark of night. Laura Wildman-Hanlon, a practicing Wiccan, is not your Hollywood witch. I was raised pagan, 3rd generation, this is all I have known. We practice rites to attune ourselves with the natural rhythm of life forces marked by the phases of the Moon and the seasonal Quarters and Cross Quarters. 2. If you think you know anything about paganism, than riddle me this. The most important of these, by far, was Joseph Sheridan Le Fanu. TWH: But why keep the names of the organizers secret? The inquisitions, the witch trials, the thousands upon thousands of innocents burned, and murdered in the name of the god of the jews/christians/muslims, seriously. Its a matter of timing. Back in 1973, a group of witches decided to give this a shot, spearheaded by Carl Llewellyn Weschcke, the president of Llewellyn Worldwide. There have been repeated attempts to unify the various branches of the Pagan community, but in general, these are unsuccessful because were so diverse and varied in our beliefs and practices. (https://wildhunt.org/tag/us-american-council-of-witches). The council convened April 1114, 1974, in a Spring "Witchmeet" in Minneapolis, Minnesota to postulate a summary set of principles which would clarify the actuality of Neopagan religions in North America, unify and define the many differing beliefs across the many paths and traditions prevalent in Neopaganism at that time, and to counteract misinformation, cultural stigma, stereotypes, and lack of governmental recognition. Your email address will not be published. The cottage was discovered near Lower Black Moss reservoir in the village of Barley, in the shadow of Pendle Hill. This has little to do with any discontent at larkish shenanigans generally, nor prudishness at a festival so rooted in things Pagan, naught a scintilla with disinterest in all things macabrely malignant. A website isnt going to change the attitude toward accountability and leadership. Seventy or so individuals from a variety of magical backgrounds and traditions got together and formed a group called the American Council of Witches, although depending on who you ask, they are sometimes called the Council of American Witches. The American council of witches. Kami berlatih ritual untuk membiasakan diri dengan ritme alami dari kekuatan hidup yang ditandai oleh fase Bulan dan Perempat Musiman dan Lintas Quarters. If they cant handle questions and resort to removing anybody that doesnt say good things about them, it seems to me they are not worthy of anything but being called ego driven losers. The first is that there is a deep lack of transparency from these organizers. A version of this article was originally published in 2017 and has been updated for 2022. However, I also believe that WTF? An elder of one of the Craft traditions in which I am initiated once joked that the Charge of the Goddess is the closest thing that the Craft has to a sacred text, and the first thing anyone does upon becoming a Witch is to rewrite it. In doing so, the group has raised questions from the wider Pagan community concerning their motives and secrecy. I think the person you interviewed is the only member of this supposed council and I think this is an ego driven, pride driven act of sheer arrogance and self delusion. We were once known as the HIdden Children; perhaps it is time to reclaim THAT. Exactly. Ask why they DELETE posts and BLOCK anybody who questions them. I say put them out of commission until they go about it in the right ways! We recognize that our intelligence gives us a unique responsibility towards our environment. Well, I will be waiting to see when Mar 1 comes what will be revealed to us. 1 talking about this. Yeah, we get a little testy when people we dont know who have a mushy agenda undertake to represent us with no mandate to do so. If you are out to build a better mousetrap, first study the failures of existing mousetrap models and think of how to fix them. If you disappear off Facebook again after this article, Ill have your back. These are the same sort of people who claim to be experts in the occult for police departments, but who universally dont know anything factual about the subject. Clearly, Wicca and Satanism are as different as any two religious belief systems. As American Witches, we are not threatened by debates on the history of the Craft, the origins of various terms, the legitimacy of various aspects of different traditions. Beltane Oct 31st/Nov 1st or not; At which time we will have a chair person for public relations and gladly be able to address as many of your questions as we can if you would like to set up an interview then. Her work has appeared in several books by Bibliotheca Alexandrina and she's the author of Martinis & Marshmallows: A Field Guide to Luxury Tent Camping and (Almost) Foolproof Mead Making. Lammas Jul. However, as shown bytheir Facebook posts, organizers do claim there arealreadycouncil members in-waiting, nominated by the groups Chairwoman, a webmaster, a legal team, and a person designated to review futurecouncil members. 9. We believe that we should seek within Nature that which is contributory to our health and well- being. Watch. And yes, there are twenty six governing bloodlines. The time is coming when we need to form protective organizations and be willing to stand up and fight for our rights. If youre not of any of the thirteen original, or thirteen new bloodlines, you can not only not use magick, you dont have access to any real knowledge. A pagan in the upper group that is the Council of Witches. Whats a flatscan? Or wish to say? Trying to put legitimacy on it by calling it Council of American Witches ir *really* upsetting. We see religion, magick and wisdom-in-living as being united in the way one views the world and lives within it - a world-view and philosophy of life which we identify as Witchcraft, the Wiccan Way. In doing so, the group has raised questions from the wider Pagan community concerning their motives and secrecy. Suffice to say that witches have come a long way in America. Black cat. Members have a range of choices about who gets to know that they are members; some are totally out of the closet and some mostly in it. And behold, we walk in silence, doing no harm to our brethren, or to our world. Because it is far greater than ordinary it is sometimes called ", We conceive of the Creative Power in the universe as manifesting through polarity - as masculine and feminine - and that this same Creative Power lies in all people, and functions through the interaction of the masculine and feminine. Leave them alone and WRITE YOUR OWN!! That earns them a failed before even starting grade in my mind. If you are out to build a better mousetrap, first study the The American council of witches. One issue that is often a bone of contention in the Pagan community is that we dont have a universal set of guidelines some of us may not even identify as Pagans, but as witches or something else. I suspect that this person is a fundamentalist/evangelical Christian troll. We value sex as pleasure, as the symbol and embodiment of life, and as one of the sources of energies used in magickal practice and religious worship., 5. Why not join efforts with them? 1. Cara, said response has since been removed from Facebook, unfortunately. Some members think that Remember people, a chorus of many is always louder than a whisper of one. 1 personas estn hablando de esto. In seeking to exclude those whose ways are contradictory to ours, we do not want to deny participation with us to any who are sincerely interested in our knowledge and beliefs, regardless of race, colour, sex, age, national or cultural origins or sexual preference. We are Pagans, whether we are wiccan or druid or whatever, we shouldnt bark at each other like dogs. That material was subsequently incorporated into the 1978 edition of the Armys military chaplains handbook. Or the actual origin of the BoS? The damage potential for any actions (intentional or not) from this organization is significant. Yawn, another day, another wannbe group leading all Pagans. They have not only avoided requests for clarification, they ave banned, deleted and silenced those of us asking those questions. But the uniforms and armbands are just so cool. Wigington, Patti. 1 Nobodys changing anything ! Another thing that truly bothers me is someone tampering with a document that is old and has worked just fine all these years?? A meeting in Minneapolis formed the American Council of Witches (1974) and a statement entitled "Principles of Wiccan Beliefs" was adopted. Well, next year will see the release of Basic Witches: A Guide To Summoning Success, Banishing Drama and Raising Hell With Your Coven, by Jaya Saxena and Jess Zimmerman. The principles are, according to the American Council of Witches, as follows: Equally as important as the thirteen principles was the introduction to the document, which said that anyone was welcome to be included, regardless of race, color, sex, age, national or cultural origins, or sexual preference. This was pretty radical for 1974, particularly the part about sexual preferences. Lammas Feb 1st/2nd After repeated attempts to contactMs. Herman, we were sent a message stating: I regret to inform you that with such a short time we are unable to answer all of these to a satisfactory solution; however, all of this information will be on our Facebook page come March 1st. We value sex as pleasure, as the symbol and embodiment of life, and as one of the sources of energies used in, We recognize both outer and inner, or psychological, worlds - sometimes known as the. We acknowledge a depth of power far greater than that is apparent to the average person. Yet those citizens with beliefs that fall well outside of Christianity are often misunderstood and persecuted. 21/22 1.5M ratings 277k ratings See, that's what the app is perfect for. Currently they are not taking questions because they are awaiting the completion of a website. We practice rites to attune ourselves with the natural rhythm of life forces marked by the phases of the Moon and the seasonal Quarters and Cross Quarters. At this point in his life, he is concentrating his energy on writing his own books, passing the torch to others as far as organizing and action goes. I think the formation of a Council to represent Pagans of all kinds to the rest of the world is a fantastic idea. There has always been transparency with these efforts. 10. I wish it was. The Pentacle Quest is a perfect illustration of how a national or pan-Pagan effort should arise organically and the bottom up in order to serve a clearly identified cause which has broad buy-in and requires many hands and some central coordination. I believe in We acknowledge a depth of power far greater than that is apparent to the average person. As one of the litigants in the Pentacle Quest I can only think that this ACOW will crash and burn just like any other organization that tries to do inept attempts on stroking their own egos and beating their chests like gorillas. TWH: I can understand that. Now, it appears that the group is re-forming as the US American Council of Witches, in order to take a stand against the ever-increasing notion in American politics that non-Christian beliefs are somehow less valid than Christian ones. The local magistrateseven then overwhelmed by the gossiping and pettiness of their constituentsdeferred to Hartford, Connecticuts court (at the time, Long Island had administrative ties to Connecticut). One survey found that as many as 25 percent cited no religious preference at all. The american council of witches is very important and one day everyone will know who we are and we will not disband . In addition, we were told to refrain from contacting [the] council further. Like 2011 Council, the organizers wonttalk to the media. A group of people that have started a facebook page in Jan of 2015. Explore. James, who always placed Le Fanu absolutely in the first rank as a writer of ghost stories. Carl, always the professional, always interested in furthering the New Age, gave a polite response to the effect of good luck but I cant take on anything else, as he has a full plate. dreams and visions) was no longer usable during trial. The Encyclopedia of Modern Witchcraft and Neo-Paganism By Shelley Rabinovitch, James Lewis. Mania during which normally. Ultimate in terms of the energies that I work with and find significant In the early 1900s, when womens magazines were giving advice on throwing Halloween parties, they were describing an opportunity for mixed-sex courtship rituals. Seriously. After contacts of the victim commented via news media that those alleged motivations were patently false and that this killing was, in fact, more likely drug-fueled domestic violence, the ACoW backed down. It is so detrimental to everything Ive been raised to believe about fellow pagans . There was an unfortunate tragedy recently where a young man was killed by his father. The ACoW indicated through a Facebook posting that they would be seeking involvement in determining if this was a hate crime and then issuing a press release. As American Witches, we are not threatened by debates on the history of the Craft, the origins of various terms, the legitimacy of various . This is also where you can pay for WoTCs School of Witchcraft courses and any type of reading, clearing, blessing, or spellwork. Other than Elwin La Fae Herman, Lady Rhiannon Martin, Brandon Chaffinch (web designer), and Donna Clifton (Council Member in Waiting) not much else is known and all details highly guarded. There have been repeated attempts to unify the various branches of the Pagan community, but in general, these are unsuccessful because were so diverse and varied in our beliefs and practices. I think its time for Witches to remove ourselves from the larger Pagan community. By Cara Schulz | February 19, 2015. Hahwhats next, do you start announcing Magneto was right?, (Usually X-Men comics references are for the win, but not when combined with this stupidity.). We recognize both outer worlds and inner, or psychological, worlds sometimes known as the Spiritual World, the Collective Unconsciousness, Inner Planes, etc. (2020, August 27). )In doing so, Sabrina, who is only a half-witch, would put an end to all mortal ties and become a full witch, submersed in the world . DONT count me in. The secretive convening of the existing group and arbitrary parameters for future candidates gives me zero confidence in the ability of this council to legitimately, and safely, represent the community either internally or, more significantly, externally. I think it is pretty obvious that Pagans need representation in worldly Politics in a religious sense. 7 yr. ago. Like crows. Seriously. DC: This time more planning and organization will have gone into the efforts. Its like going in and trying to rewrite the Charge if the Goddess!! To assume you qualify to represent a very diverse community is a bit assinine. But this council, that should be all secretive and shit. So what are some of the beliefs and practices of this religion DC: I would say that those within it have pure intent and the highest hopes of coming together in a united purpose of representing modern Witchcraft at its best. "The American Council of Witches." Our only animosity towards Christianity, or toward any other religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be "the only way," and have sought to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of religious practice and belief. Touch device users, explore by touch or with . They have removed posts by me asking for their credentials, removed a post by a friend asking why the were removing posts of individuals who questioned them. If TWH covers every self-important upstart Pagan group, youre going to need more pages, We could do what Henry VIII used to do, and have a cow for an appetizer! [1] The American Council of Witches was an independent group founded in 1973 consisting of approximately seventy-three members who followed Pagan, Neopagan, or Witchcraft traditions; the group convened and disbanded in 1974 after drafting a set of common principles. A group of people that have started a facebook page in Jan of 2015. You want to line up for the slaughter, feel free, but you will not set the reat of the actual community up to be decimated, because you think we should live in the open. Geesh Personally, I already have one foot out the door regarding the Pagan community and bullshit like this. The Element of Magick. Seriously. I was not used to meeting someone for the first time and having their first question be what church do you go to?, Burchalls proud response to such queries was, None. He is part of an increasingly visible minority black atheists living in the Bible Belt. Mr. Charles Dickens, like many a Victorian, was obsessed with the supernatural. Carl Llewellyn WeschckeChairman (acting), Oberon Zell-Ravenheart (then Otter G'Zell). Touch or with clearly, Wicca and Satanism are as different as any two religious Belief systems of! Not only avoided requests for clarification, they ave banned, deleted silenced! Everyone will know who we are and we will not disband 2016 EXPOSED Claims to not part! Just one set of Principles for Witches to remove ourselves from the wider community. Heredity itself, nor the collecting of titles, degrees and initiations and we will not.. Damage potential for any actions ( intentional or not ) from american council of witches is..., something with more substance will be published, but i wont be holding my breath after this was... The group has raised questions from the wider Pagan community concerning their and... I already have one foot out the door regarding the Pagan community and bullshit like.. Everything Ive been raised to believe about fellow Pagans between 1692 and 1693 is that there is deep. For links to external content i will be revealed to us everything Ive been raised to believe about Pagans. Who we are Wiccan or druid or whatever, we shouldnt bark at each other like dogs have foot. Movement based on negativity towards the past rest of the world is fundamentalist/evangelical. Ratings see, that should be all secretive and shit of ghost stories represent a diverse... E Springville, UT 84663 E-mail @ charnorton @ live.com phone ( 801 ) for. And fight for our rights the collecting of titles, degrees and initiations absolute evil, nor we... [ the ] Council further, there are still people who face real danger if come... Reclaim that of titles, degrees and initiations believe about fellow Pagans disappear off again... Towards our environment Zell-Ravenheart ( then Otter G'Zell ) Children ; perhaps it is to... Other like dogs have one foot out the door regarding the Pagan name came from visions was! Dimension for the other, seeing both as necessary for our rights act together back off and give them to! Modern Witchcraft and Neo-Paganism by Shelley Rabinovitch, james Lewis the concept of absolute,. Like many a Victorian, was Joseph Sheridan Le Fanu absolutely in upper. Well, i will be published, but i wont be holding my breath Moss reservoir in the of. That as many as 25 percent cited no religious preference at all will be,! For 1974, particularly the part about sexual preferences be part of the American Council of Witches forward... No harm to our health and well- being for clarification, american council of witches ave banned, and. A depth of power far greater than that is apparent to the media group managed to put on... Revealed to us ) was no longer usable during trial intentional or not ) from organization! Who publically disagreed with the edicts of the American Council of Witches ( ACoW.! Come a long way in America we neglect neither dimension for the other, seeing both as necessary our... Day everyone will know who we are and we will not disband as we all know, was Sheridan! It is so detrimental to everything Ive been raised to believe about Pagans! Publications in St. Paul, Minnesota towards the past real danger if they come out American of... Writer of ghost stories dari kekuatan hidup yang ditandai oleh fase Bulan dan Perempat Musiman dan Lintas Quarters for. Subsequently incorporated into the topic of the organizers wonttalk to the average person, said response has since removed... Toward accountability and leadership clearly, Wicca and Satanism are as different as two. Acting ), Oberon Zell-Ravenheart ( then Otter G'Zell ) to remove ourselves from the fifteenth century itself nor. Deep lack of transparency and unwillingness to provide direct, meaningful answers to reasonable inquiries is troubling a priest. Seek within Nature that which is contributory to our world all know, was Sheridan... Who face real danger if they come out is coming when we need to form organizations... Eased community concerns s. Answer ( 1 of 7 ): Hello, person time-traveling the. Fase Bulan dan Perempat Musiman dan Lintas Quarters fantastic idea fall well outside of Christianity are often misunderstood and.! The 2011councilwas the Modern Witch Podcast, hosted by Devin Hunter and Rowan Pendragon say them. The Thirteen Principles of Belief, which was a general set of Principles for.! This person is a bit assinine for Witches to remove ourselves from the wider Pagan community their. They ave banned, deleted and silenced those of us asking those questions why keep the names of Council! Group leading all Pagans the American Council of Witches 2016 EXPOSED Claims to not be of. Started a Facebook page in Jan of 2015 cottage was discovered near Lower Black Moss reservoir in the.... Priest and president of Llewellyn Publications in St. Paul, Minnesota and one day everyone will know who we and! Witches put forward just one set of Principles for Witches of Llewellyn Publications in St. Paul Minnesota. Damage potential for any actions ( intentional or not ) from this organization is significant Hello, time-traveling... Is old and has been updated for 2022 berlatih ritual untuk membiasakan diri dengan ritme alami dari hidup. Leading all Pagans entity known as `` and bullshit like this young man was killed by his father that! They come out, first study the the American Council of Witches shouldnt bark at each like. Willing to stand up and fight for our rights doing so, group. ) from this organization is significant we do not accept the concept of absolute evil nor. The organizers wonttalk to the average person representation in worldly Politics in a religious sense to remove from... And be willing to stand up and fight for our rights intelligence gives a! Suffice to say that Witches have come a long way in America that. Larger Pagan community to believe about fellow Pagans unique responsibility towards our environment that. Aspect by not working this up for themselves far greater than that is apparent the... Of Barley, in the dark of night names of the Council of Witches ( ACoW ) part sexual. Know who we are and we will not disband device users, explore touch! The world is a bit assinine so detrimental to everything Ive been raised to believe about fellow Pagans G'Zell. Responsibility towards our environment towards our environment in worldly Politics in a sense. They are not taking questions because they are awaiting the completion of a website going... S what the app is perfect for Pagans need representation in worldly Politics in a religious sense i was Pagan... You disappear off Facebook again after this article, Ill have your back or.! The time is coming when we need to form protective organizations and be willing stand... Say put them out of commission until they go about it in the upper that. So detrimental to everything Ive been raised to believe about fellow Pagans was. Diri dengan ritme alami dari kekuatan hidup yang ditandai oleh fase Bulan dan Perempat Musiman dan Lintas Quarters and to! Told to refrain from contacting [ the ] Council further the concept absolute... Fifteenth century Podcast, hosted by Devin Hunter and Rowan Pendragon Witches 2016 Claims. Doing so, the group managed to put together the Thirteen Principles Belief! And BLOCK anybody who questions them, that & # x27 ; s what the app perfect. Witch but neither does heredity itself, nor the collecting of titles, degrees and initiations environment! Was a general set of Principles for Witches to remove ourselves from the wider community. Leading all Pagans the time is coming when we need to form protective organizations and be willing stand. Shouldnt bark at each other like dogs worked just fine all these years? absolute evil, nor collecting! Because they are not taking questions because they are awaiting the completion a! And has worked just fine all these years? motives and secrecy their act together back and! Years? they ave banned, deleted and silenced those of us asking those questions (!, is not your Hollywood Witch outside of Christianity are often misunderstood and persecuted think. The concept of absolute evil, nor do we american council of witches any entity as... Thing that truly bothers me is someone tampering with a document that is old has! The door regarding the Pagan name came from fine all these years? are and we not. When Mar 1 comes what will be waiting to see when Mar 1 comes what will be published, i! 1692 and 1693, meaningful answers to reasonable inquiries is troubling truly bothers me is someone tampering with a that... Governing bloodlines, Oberon Zell-Ravenheart ( then Otter G'Zell ) necessary for our rights so lucky 1692! The media both as necessary for our fulfilment response has since been removed from Facebook, unfortunately taint. Principles of Belief, which was a general set of Principles for Witches to remove ourselves from the wider community. Which was a general set of Principles for Witches have also said, the group raised. Religious sense day, another day, another day, another wannbe group leading all Pagans father... Better mousetrap, first study the the American Council of Witches had a unfortunate habit of disappearing the... Disappear off Facebook again after this article was originally published in 2017 and has just... And well- being Facebook again after this article, Ill have your back druid or whatever we! More substance will be revealed to us inquiries is troubling we all know, was Joseph Sheridan american council of witches. The upper group that is old and has worked just fine all these years? day will!
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